From kayve at sfsu.edu  Fri May  1 18:43:50 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] fvwm focus
In-Reply-To: <87ocuex0s0.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <87fxfs7r8h.fsf@matica.localdomain> <20090428165152.GA31982@wagner>
	<20090428172830.16903axqiuxj3gu8@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<20090429180023.GA5350@wagner> <87ocuex0s0.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011842480.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

>
> Claude> "FocusFollowsIntent" is an old joke picked up from BUUG many
> Claude> years ago.
>
> Ahh, your original reply makes much more sense now :)

AI technology that can understand MRI imaging of radiolabeled glucosage 
usage--they have that now!


>
> -- 
> Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
> gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
> fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
> Ham is for reading, not for eating.
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*

From kayve at sfsu.edu  Fri May  1 19:07:50 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 19:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011901090.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, william benton wrote:

>
> If I want to put a unix os on a pc(not linux), is a unix os(not linux)
> available as freeware? what is the best source? Is berkeley unix
> available as freeware? Is BSD berkeley unix? I mean is it exactly like
> what you would get if you went to the university and logged on to their
> machine?

not exactly..

pcbsd.org, freebsd.org, netbsd.org, dragonflybsd.org, and openbsd.org are
all independent projects that spun off the 4.4 BSD source code

There is such a thing as http://www.bsd.org/  that seems to link out to
the others.  Mac OS X is derived from a BSD called Darwin.

Currently, the UC (as always) has a vast array of computational resources.
They even have a Windoze Lab! (ugg!) [=:O

https://iris.eecs.berkeley.edu/

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/license.html

>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
> http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*

From kayve at sfsu.edu  Fri May  1 19:13:54 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 19:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Tony Godshall wrote:

> [the WB wrote]
>>>>    If I want to put a unix os on a pc(not linux), is a unix os(not linux)
>>>>    available as freeware? what is the best source? Is berkeley unix available
>>>>    as freeware? Is BSD berkeley unix? I mean is it exactly like what you
>>>>    would get if you went to the university and logged on to their machine?
> ...
>
> [I wrote]
>> If you want something other than a wild guess, you might read this...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD#Significant_BSD_descendants
> ...
>
> And here's a chart of what variants are most popular as of 2005...
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_BSD_operating_systems#Popularity

I feel like pointing out that PC-BSD is actually a FreeBSD.. just packaged 
up and purported to be user friendly. I am about to try it out on the new 
puter I am hopefully getting soon.

> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is used at
> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you

I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I just took 
a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the 
non-windoze labs  {:)


> actually interested in, William, computer science?  General computer
> labs?  Engineering labs?  (I hear computer labs in universities are
> closing now that everyone has their own computers)

The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run what they 
want.  Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.

>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix#2000_to_present
>
> Best Regards.
> Please keep in touch.
> This is unedited.
> P-)
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*

From togo at of.net  Sat May  2 13:19:56 2009
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:19:56 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: <3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>

...
>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is used at
>> U.C. Berkeley? ?I assume it varies by department. ?What are you
>
> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda. ?I just took
> a couple of courses there. ?I think they were Suns. ?That's the
> non-windoze labs ?{:)

Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...

>> actually interested in, William, computer science? ?General computer
>> labs? ?Engineering labs? ?(I hear computer labs in universities are
>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>
> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run what they
> want. ?Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.

You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.

Tony


From oly562 at charter.net  Sat May  2 13:42:14 2009
From: oly562 at charter.net (PR)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 13:42:14 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>

Some one lend me their log and pass, I would like to have a look-see at 
the UCB lab. ;)  havn't log into a school lab since um... 1992? lol

Tony Godshall wrote:
> ...
>   
>>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is used at
>>> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you
>>>       
>> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I just took
>> a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the
>> non-windoze labs  {:)
>>     
>
> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
> around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...
>
>   
>>> actually interested in, William, computer science?  General computer
>>> labs?  Engineering labs?  (I hear computer labs in universities are
>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>>       
>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run what they
>> want.  Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>>     
>
> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.
>
> Tony
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>
>   

From jose at tumis.com  Sat May  2 15:10:19 2009
From: jose at tumis.com (jose d lopez)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 15:10:19 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>
Message-ID: <F4932A3B-D6AA-4437-A460-F496F7FE3942@tumis.com>

It varies, but campus wide services generally run on Solaris. Student  
run labs use FreeBSD or various *nix.

The school itself is actually very luddite when it comes to IT.  
Departments have very strict rules for compliance if they want to run  
on the school network.



On May 2, 2009, at 1:42 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:

> Some one lend me their log and pass, I would like to have a look-see  
> at
> the UCB lab. ;)  havn't log into a school lab since um... 1992? lol
>
> Tony Godshall wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is  
>>>> used at
>>>> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you
>>>>
>>> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I  
>>> just took
>>> a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the
>>> non-windoze labs  {:)
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
>> around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
>> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
>> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...
>>
>>
>>>> actually interested in, William, computer science?  General  
>>>> computer
>>>> labs?  Engineering labs?  (I hear computer labs in universities are
>>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>>>
>>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run  
>>> what they
>>> want.  Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>>>
>>
>> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
>> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Buug mailing list
>> Buug at weak.org
>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug

From oly562 at charter.net  Sat May  2 19:48:52 2009
From: oly562 at charter.net (PR)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 19:48:52 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>
	<A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com>
Message-ID: <49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>

rsa keys? 30 seconds? 2 firewalls? , as well as be added to nis. thats 
what i need at my last job and is understandable. ;)  I mean, be on the 
phone, give me ALL credentials so I can have a peek at UCB net.

assumed wishful thoughts ;)

jose d lopez wrote:
> Ha, ha. It's actually not that easy as login/pass anymore. If you're 
> not on the campus network, LAN or AirBears- wireless, you need to VPN 
> in, then connect to servers. No external connections allowed.
>
> There are a few offices that run rogue APs and servers but UCB IT is 
> proactive on shutting them down.
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2009, at 1:42 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Some one lend me their log and pass, I would like to have a look-see at
>> the UCB lab. ;)  havn't log into a school lab since um... 1992? lol
>>
>> Tony Godshall wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is 
>>>>> used at
>>>>> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you
>>>>>
>>>> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I 
>>>> just took
>>>> a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the
>>>> non-windoze labs  {:)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
>>> around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
>>> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
>>> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...
>>>
>>>
>>>>> actually interested in, William, computer science?  General computer
>>>>> labs?  Engineering labs?  (I hear computer labs in universities are
>>>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>>>>
>>>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run 
>>>> what they
>>>> want.  Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
>>> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Buug mailing list
>>> Buug at weak.org
>>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Buug mailing list
>> Buug at weak.org
>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>

From bill.honeycutt at gmail.com  Sat May  2 23:21:47 2009
From: bill.honeycutt at gmail.com (Wm. F. Honeycutt)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 23:21:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net> 
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>
	<A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com> 
	<49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>
Message-ID: <87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com>

Take a look at:

http://nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computerlaw/Californ.txt

Then consider the preceding post.  Ask yourself, "Is it advisable to
solicit user/login information to an unauthorized network in a public
forum like BUUG's list server?

I'm not making judgements, but this thread seems to be careening
toward the Darwin Award short list.

If you want to look at the Cal network, sign up for a class.

On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 7:48 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
> rsa keys? 30 seconds? 2 firewalls? , as well as be added to nis. thats
> what i need at my last job and is understandable. ;) ?I mean, be on the
> phone, give me ALL credentials so I can have a peek at UCB net.
>
> assumed wishful thoughts ;)
>
> jose d lopez wrote:
>> Ha, ha. It's actually not that easy as login/pass anymore. If you're
>> not on the campus network, LAN or AirBears- wireless, you need to VPN
>> in, then connect to servers. No external connections allowed.
>>
>> There are a few offices that run rogue APs and servers but UCB IT is
>> proactive on shutting them down.
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2009, at 1:42 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Some one lend me their log and pass, I would like to have a look-see at
>>> the UCB lab. ;) ?havn't log into a school lab since um... 1992? lol
>>>
>>> Tony Godshall wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is
>>>>>> used at
>>>>>> U.C. Berkeley? ?I assume it varies by department. ?What are you
>>>>>>
>>>>> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda. ?I
>>>>> just took
>>>>> a couple of courses there. ?I think they were Suns. ?That's the
>>>>> non-windoze labs ?{:)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
>>>> around today. ?Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
>>>> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either. ?Of course now they are
>>>> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> actually interested in, William, computer science? ?General computer
>>>>>> labs? ?Engineering labs? ?(I hear computer labs in universities are
>>>>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>>>>>
>>>>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run
>>>>> what they
>>>>> want. ?Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies? ?I'd assumed
>>>> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Buug mailing list
>>>> Buug at weak.org
>>>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Buug mailing list
>>> Buug at weak.org
>>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sun May  3 01:04:01 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 01:04:01 -0700
Subject: [buug] replaced the Unix copyright stuff so they don't call
	it	Unix(tm)
In-Reply-To: <3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090503010401.104060d18nay1cgs@webmail.rawbw.com>

Quoting "Tony Godshall" <togo at of.net>:

> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
> around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...

No, actually the reason so many Unix and UNIX (R) variants (primarily)
use names other than UNIX - most notably for the operating system
itself, mostly has to do with what historic controls have existed on
the UNIX (R) trademark.  Before it was handed over from Novell to what
was then X/Open Company (now The Open Group), exactly who could and
couldn't call their software / operating system UNIX (R) was, at any
given point in time, directly or indirectly under the thumb of exactly
one company that owned the trademark, and would sell branding rights on
whatever terms and conditions they chose (typically tens of thousands
or dollars or more - just to barely get started).  This is a fair part
of what sparked the Unix Wars.  That's also why so many other operating
systems didn't call themselves UNIX (R) or claim to be UNIX (R) - but
they'd certainly make claims about compatibility, etc.  Hence names
such as Cromix, Xenix, HP-UX, AIX, Irix, Ultrix, Tru64, SunOS, Solaris,
etc., etc.  By the time UNIX (R) trademark was handed off to X/Open
Company, most other vendors of what was quite effectively Unix - if not
UNIX (R) in name, had the Operating System names/brands pretty well
established, and wanted to distinguish themselves, ... so, ...
although they typically also wanted to stick UNIX (R) on their products
(and most have done so), many/most didn't change their names on account
of that (though some did).  So now, among UNIX (R) variants, most don't
use UNIX as part of the name of the brand product, though some do.
Along the history of UNIX, many, even if they licensed the source code
and rights to develop and resell binaries from such, may not have
licensed use of the UNIX name - hence even many that used what was then
UNIX source code didn't use the UNIX name (e.g. Xenix).

Since then, UNIX (R) is an "open" standard - for certain definitions of
"open".  The standards themselves are free - as in beer, not freedom.
UNIX (R) branding is available - not for free - but on at least a much
more level playing field than it was historically (cough up enough
money to be tested, pass the tests, "earn" the right to use the UNIX
(R) branding).



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sun May  3 17:32:51 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 17:32:51 -0700
Subject: [buug] Free access: Safari Books Online, via ...
Message-ID: <20090503173251.858045sudsvhm3eo@webmail.rawbw.com>

Got a current* Berkeley Public Library card?

Not only can one access Safari Books Online from within
the Berkeley Public Library, but one can also access it online
via the Berkeley Public Library web site and by using one's
current* Berkeley Public Library card.

Other libraries might possibly have similar access.

California residents can bet a Berkeley Public Library card - need
to visit a branch in person to complete the application process.
Details available on the Berkeley Public Library web site.

*Berkeley Public Library cards expire after two years (or two years of
not being used)

references:
http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/
http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/services_and_resources/online_resources.php#computers



From jzitt at josephzitt.com  Sun May  3 18:21:05 2009
From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 21:21:05 -0400
Subject: [buug] Free access: Safari Books Online, via ...
In-Reply-To: <20090503173251.858045sudsvhm3eo@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20090503173251.858045sudsvhm3eo@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <cf60725f0905031821q2e000499gb05b371c12376d12@mail.gmail.com>

This is great to know. Thanks.

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Michael Paoli
<Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Got a current* Berkeley Public Library card?
>
> Not only can one access Safari Books Online from within
> the Berkeley Public Library, but one can also access it online
> via the Berkeley Public Library web site and by using one's
> current* Berkeley Public Library card.
>
> Other libraries might possibly have similar access.
>
> California residents can bet a Berkeley Public Library card - need
> to visit a branch in person to complete the application process.
> Details available on the Berkeley Public Library web site.
>
> *Berkeley Public Library cards expire after two years (or two years of
> not being used)
>
> references:
> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/
> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/services_and_resources/online_resources.php#computers
>
-- 
Joseph Zitt :: The Path of the Bookseller :: blog.josephzitt.com

From jb at caustic.org  Sun May  3 18:34:04 2009
From: jb at caustic.org (Johan Beisser)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:34:04 -0700
Subject: [buug] Free access: Safari Books Online, via ...
In-Reply-To: <cf60725f0905031821q2e000499gb05b371c12376d12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090503173251.858045sudsvhm3eo@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<cf60725f0905031821q2e000499gb05b371c12376d12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32393800905031834v70aa8518i200e532f4d2a10b@mail.gmail.com>

For those of you not in Berkeley, SF Public Library also does this.

To get an SFPL library card, you have to be a resident of CA. Not of SF.

They proxy the service through their servers, giving access to a wide
range of resources, including Safari Books Online.

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Joseph Zitt <jzitt at josephzitt.com> wrote:
> This is great to know. Thanks.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Michael Paoli
> <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> Got a current* Berkeley Public Library card?
>>
>> Not only can one access Safari Books Online from within
>> the Berkeley Public Library, but one can also access it online
>> via the Berkeley Public Library web site and by using one's
>> current* Berkeley Public Library card.
>>
>> Other libraries might possibly have similar access.
>>
>> California residents can bet a Berkeley Public Library card - need
>> to visit a branch in person to complete the application process.
>> Details available on the Berkeley Public Library web site.
>>
>> *Berkeley Public Library cards expire after two years (or two years of
>> not being used)
>>
>> references:
>> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/
>> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/services_and_resources/online_resources.php#computers
>>
> --
> Joseph Zitt :: The Path of the Bookseller :: blog.josephzitt.com
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>

From mattias at thorslund.us  Sun May  3 18:36:31 2009
From: mattias at thorslund.us (Mattias Thorslund)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 18:36:31 -0700
Subject: [buug] Free access: Safari Books Online, via ...
In-Reply-To: <cf60725f0905031821q2e000499gb05b371c12376d12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090503173251.858045sudsvhm3eo@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<cf60725f0905031821q2e000499gb05b371c12376d12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FE469F.3030202@thorslund.us>

Oakland library provides the same thing:

http://www.oaklandlibrary.org/databaselist.htm#ebooks

Any other libraries a s well?

Cheers,

Mattias


Joseph Zitt wrote:
> This is great to know. Thanks.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Michael Paoli
> <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>   
>> Got a current* Berkeley Public Library card?
>>
>> Not only can one access Safari Books Online from within
>> the Berkeley Public Library, but one can also access it online
>> via the Berkeley Public Library web site and by using one's
>> current* Berkeley Public Library card.
>>
>> Other libraries might possibly have similar access.
>>
>> California residents can bet a Berkeley Public Library card - need
>> to visit a branch in person to complete the application process.
>> Details available on the Berkeley Public Library web site.
>>
>> *Berkeley Public Library cards expire after two years (or two years of
>> not being used)
>>
>> references:
>> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/
>> http://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/services_and_resources/online_resources.php#computers
>>
>>     


From oly562 at charter.net  Mon May  4 08:47:52 2009
From: oly562 at charter.net (PR)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 08:47:52 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>	<A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com>
	<49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>
	<87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FF0E28.9090306@charter.net>

good thing bill is watching... who knows what mischief we might get into...

Wm. F. Honeycutt wrote:
> Take a look at:
>
> http://nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computerlaw/Californ.txt
>
> Then consider the preceding post.  Ask yourself, "Is it advisable to
> solicit user/login information to an unauthorized network in a public
> forum like BUUG's list server?
>
> I'm not making judgements, but this thread seems to be careening
> toward the Darwin Award short list.
>
> If you want to look at the Cal network, sign up for a class.
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 7:48 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
>   
>> rsa keys? 30 seconds? 2 firewalls? , as well as be added to nis. thats
>> what i need at my last job and is understandable. ;)  I mean, be on the
>> phone, give me ALL credentials so I can have a peek at UCB net.
>>
>> assumed wishful thoughts ;)
>>
>> jose d lopez wrote:
>>     
>>> Ha, ha. It's actually not that easy as login/pass anymore. If you're
>>> not on the campus network, LAN or AirBears- wireless, you need to VPN
>>> in, then connect to servers. No external connections allowed.
>>>
>>> There are a few offices that run rogue APs and servers but UCB IT is
>>> proactive on shutting them down.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 2, 2009, at 1:42 PM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Some one lend me their log and pass, I would like to have a look-see at
>>>> the UCB lab. ;)  havn't log into a school lab since um... 1992? lol
>>>>
>>>> Tony Godshall wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is
>>>>>>> used at
>>>>>>> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I
>>>>>> just took
>>>>>> a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the
>>>>>> non-windoze labs  {:)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
>>>>> around today.  Of course they, like BSD, replaced the Unix copyright
>>>>> stuff so they don't call it Unix(tm) either.  Of course now they are
>>>>> owned by Oracle, and they've open-srouced much of it...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> actually interested in, William, computer science?  General computer
>>>>>>> labs?  Engineering labs?  (I hear computer labs in universities are
>>>>>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run
>>>>>> what they
>>>>>> want.  Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
>>>>> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Buug mailing list
>>>>> Buug at weak.org
>>>>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Buug mailing list
>>>> Buug at weak.org
>>>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>>>         
>> _______________________________________________
>> Buug mailing list
>> Buug at weak.org
>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>
>   

From oly562 at charter.net  Mon May  4 10:23:19 2009
From: oly562 at charter.net (PR)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 10:23:19 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>	<A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com>
	<49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>
	<87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FF2487.50103@charter.net>

Actually Bill, it's morning here, and sometimes I email things without 
real thought. 

Let's recap:

After reading the NSI page link from Bill, just wanted to clarify things:

First off, thanks for that link. Good to know info.
The "Rules" have gotten more restrictive since the last time I viewed them,

Here is the mischief I am referring to:

To assist the guys comments below, if I had access I would help them by 
simply typing a 'uname -u' or '-mrs' on any unices that accepts that 
command to see what OS it is running.  I figured they new that already.

What I meant by being on the phone: or wishful thinking: 

1. I wouldn't send login/pass info over the net, or voip phone system 
for that matter - that would be a darwin winner to me.
2: I simply miss having access to networks other than my own or job 
related networks. I like to see how other admins set up their op's. 
Assumed evolution.

It appears that computer labs have tightened up their networks, that's 
GREAT as they should. 

Next time fellas, try not to use a list server to ask any private net 
questions, as most are willing to help out. I am one of them, but if you 
are to do anything listed in the NSI, then you can consider me out.  Who 
knows what mischief people will get into.

Maybe I should reread my emails before I send them... sighs...


Njoy
Oly


Below is what started it all...
> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is
> used at
> U.C. Berkeley?  I assume it varies by department.  What are you
>
>   
>   
I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda.  I
just took a couple of courses there.  I think they were Suns.  That's the
non-windoze labs  {:)



From kayve at sfsu.edu  Mon May  4 20:20:36 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 20:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl> 
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905042020040.6067@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Sat, 2 May 2009, Tony Godshall wrote:

> ...
>
>>> actually interested in, William, computer science? ?General computer
>>> labs? ?Engineering labs? ?(I hear computer labs in universities are
>>> closing now that everyone has their own computers)
>>
>> The general push now adays is that all these script kiddies run what they
>> want. ?Sometimes Ubuntu, sometimes windoze, sometimes macs. etc.
>
> You are calling UC Berkeley students script-kiddies?  I'd assumed
> script-kiddies weren't smart enough to get into Cal.

Attack of the killer script kiddies!

>
> Tony
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*

From bill.honeycutt at gmail.com  Mon May  4 20:55:49 2009
From: bill.honeycutt at gmail.com (Wm. F. Honeycutt)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 20:55:49 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <49FF2487.50103@charter.net>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49FCB026.4090908@charter.net>
	<A4F04247-587D-4CE8-9869-B560C6FA392D@tumis.com> 
	<49FD0614.5000804@charter.net>
	<87acd5770905022321r7c24615fj7f2f7b6a13b7522@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49FF2487.50103@charter.net>
Message-ID: <87acd5770905042055q4068dd59v342f8ada1135f75e@mail.gmail.com>

The "Imp of the Perverse" gets us all, at times.
 : )

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 10:23 AM, PR <oly562 at charter.net> wrote:
> Actually Bill, it's morning here, and sometimes I email things without real
> thought.
> Let's recap:
>
> After reading the NSI page link from Bill, just wanted to clarify things:
>
> First off, thanks for that link. Good to know info.
> The "Rules" have gotten more restrictive since the last time I viewed them,
>
> Here is the mischief I am referring to:
>
> To assist the guys comments below, if I had access I would help them by
> simply typing a 'uname -u' or '-mrs' on any unices that accepts that command
> to see what OS it is running. ?I figured they new that already.
>
> What I meant by being on the phone: or wishful thinking:
> 1. I wouldn't send login/pass info over the net, or voip phone system for
> that matter - that would be a darwin winner to me.
> 2: I simply miss having access to networks other than my own or job related
> networks. I like to see how other admins set up their op's. Assumed
> evolution.
>
> It appears that computer labs have tightened up their networks, that's GREAT
> as they should.
> Next time fellas, try not to use a list server to ask any private net
> questions, as most are willing to help out. I am one of them, but if you are
> to do anything listed in the NSI, then you can consider me out. ?Who knows
> what mischief people will get into.
>
> Maybe I should reread my emails before I send them... sighs...
>
>
> Njoy
> Oly
>
>
> Below is what started it all...
>>
>> Anyone out there in BUUG-land actually know for a fact what is
>> used at
>> U.C. Berkeley? ?I assume it varies by department. ?What are you
>>
>>
>
> I was trying to think what they had in the 2nd floor of Soda. ?I
> just took a couple of courses there. ?I think they were Suns. ?That's the
> non-windoze labs ?{:)
>
>
>


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 10:22:06 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:22:06 -0700
Subject: [buug] UNIX (R), etc.
In-Reply-To: <20090430124816.21562n52j8i62wsg@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430124816.21562n52j8i62wsg@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20090508172206.GG16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Michael Paoli (Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu):

> Once upon a time, what was UNIX(TM)/(R) was a particular set of code, or
> authorized derivative code.  That was quite a while ago.  One of the
> (relatively) good things that came out of the "UNIX Wars" was that UNIX
> (R) is not dependent upon a particular source code set or derivation
> thereof, but rather conformance to specifications and, for
> the right to carry the UNIX(R) registered trademark, passage of
> certification tests (submission to the tests for certification and
> branding is not free, though the standards upon which the tests are
> based are available for free (as in beer, not freedom)).

Quite.  It's really nostalgic to see anyone raising the hoary "BSD
isn't actually Unix", "Linux isn't actually Unix", etc., bits, because
didn't everyone who cared die off by the early 1990s?

And, before anyone goes there, Open Group may own the trademark (that
nobody really gives a damn about, any more), and the certification mark, 
but I'm not wielding either one in commerce, so they can bite me.  ;->


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 10:33:55 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:33:55 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090508173355.GH16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting william benton (webenton at hotmail.com):

> If I want to put a unix os on a pc(not linux), is a unix os(not linux)
> available as freeware? what is the best source? Is berkeley unix
> available as freeware? Is BSD berkeley unix? I mean is it exactly like
> what you would get if you went to the university and logged on to their
> machine?

1.  There are a variety of modern, PC-compatible operating systems that
are fairly classifyable as Unixes.  They fall into a number of families.

2.  The term "freeware" is ill-defined.  If you mean "available without
expenditure other than download time", the answer is yes, you can do
that.  Note that downloading isn't often a really efficient way to
acquire very large codebases, but whatever floats your boat, and that is
certainly situation-dependent.

3.  You might wish to consider that whether you can initally acquire
something at cost is an orthogonal question to the much more
interesting question of what you and others are then permitted (and
enabled) to do with it.  For that reason, it's common nowadays to
distinguish _two_ orthogonal scales of gradation.

One is costs a great deal, costs little, costs nothing.[1]  Which might be
the spectrum you're thinking of when you say "freeware".  

The other is proprietary on one end, various types of open source (aka
"free software") on the other.  This is a metric of how much freedom
(and source code availability) you and others enjoy to redistribute, to
independently modify and develop and release variation.

4.  The various BSD descendents are indeed Unixes in any useful sense of
the term.   That is also true of Unixes based on the Linux kernel, and
Unixes based on the OpenSolaris kernel, and so on.  Tastes Differ[TM],
of course.

5.  I'm having a difficult time parsing your question "What is the best
source?"  If you're asking where's the best place to acquire
installation media, etc., then it depends.  You may need to get a better
idea of what you want to try first, before that question can be usefully
answered.

The fact that you're still stuck on the quaint "Is it really Unix"
question suggests that you might need to back up a bit.


From togo at of.net  Fri May  8 10:36:47 2009
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:36:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] UNIX (R), etc.
In-Reply-To: <20090508172206.GG16483@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430124816.21562n52j8i62wsg@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<20090508172206.GG16483@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <3424dc900905081036o7517cf25y171252168043e173@mail.gmail.com>

[MP wrote]
> Once upon a time, what was UNIX(TM)/(R) was a particular set of code, or
> authorized derivative code.  That was quite a while ago.  One of the
> (relatively) good things that came out of the "UNIX Wars" was that UNIX
> (R) is not dependent upon a particular source code set or derivation
> thereof, but rather conformance to specifications and, for
> the right to carry the UNIX(R) registered trademark, passage of
> certification tests (submission to the tests for certification and
> branding is not free, though the standards upon which the tests are
> based are available for free (as in beer, not freedom)).

Thanks for the clarification, Michael.  Do I hear a wikipedia edit
coming on?  This entry could be clarified a bit...

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix

[RM wrote]
> ... ?It's really nostalgic to see anyone raising the hoary "BSD
> isn't actually Unix", "Linux isn't actually Unix", etc., bits, because
> didn't everyone who cared die off by the early 1990s?

Heh.  Thanks, William!  (and it's one thing to care (I don't) and
another to try to help out a person who seems to ("Unix (not Linux)").
 By the way, how old are you, William?

> And, before anyone goes there, Open Group may own the trademark (that
> nobody really gives a damn about, any more), and the certification mark,
> but I'm not wielding either one in commerce, so they can bite me. ?;->

Heh heh.  Quite.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 10:37:52 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:37:52 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090430170148.GA8264@primate.net>
	<3424dc900904301042t53e96e1fn3e32a6f87044a70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3424dc900904301057l2610cbd8s8164ea4beeea2601@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011909240.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<3424dc900905021319p454d9a52kaa1060a9bf762181@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090508173752.GI16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Tony Godshall (togo at of.net):

> Yeah, I guess Solaris is the closest thing to a corporate Real Unix
> around today.

Then there's Nexenta, which will really play with your mind:  100%
complete Debian/Ubuntu-flavoured GNU userspace.  OpenSolaris kernel. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexenta_OS

It's getting more difficult to experience the pain of corporate Unix.
Thank Ghod for unmaintained Solaris 2 boxes, for that old dinosaur feel.  ;->



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 10:43:03 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:43:03 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011901090.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905011901090.1290@libra.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20090508174302.GJ16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting KAYVEN RIESE (kayve at sfsu.edu):

> There is such a thing as http://www.bsd.org/  that seems to link out to
> the others.  Mac OS X is derived from a BSD called Darwin.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sort of.  Why does everyone forget NeXTSTep?

Even Apple, Inc. seems to want people to forget all about NeXT, Inc.'s
code and history, and the fact that it's the reason OS X has many of
the weirdnesses it still does.  They're still cranking out that
propaganda about hiring all of those guys cut loose when WindRiver
folded, and pretending as if OS X is and maybe always has been a shiny
FreeBSD with a Macintoy user interface.



From jb at caustic.org  Fri May  8 12:00:23 2009
From: jb at caustic.org (Johan Beisser)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:00:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <32393800905081107x2cd57d4bs590a9becdfe64ef6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090508173355.GH16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<32393800905081107x2cd57d4bs590a9becdfe64ef6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32393800905081200h387267farc7393923b4431364@mail.gmail.com>

Somehow, I managed to screw up replying to the list.

Sorry for spamming you, Rick.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Johan Beisser <jb at caustic.org>
Date: Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [buug] (no subject)
To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>


Comments in line. Perhaps a differing view.

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting william benton (webenton at hotmail.com):
>
>> If I want to put a unix os on a pc(not linux), is a unix os(not linux)
>> available as freeware? what is the best source? Is berkeley unix
>> available as freeware? Is BSD berkeley unix? I mean is it exactly like
>> what you would get if you went to the university and logged on to their
>> machine?
>
> 1. ?There are a variety of modern, PC-compatible operating systems that
> are fairly classifyable as Unixes. ?They fall into a number of families.

There's a few that are true UNIX(R), as well. BSD/OS, (from BSD, Inc),
was one of them. AT&T had a full SystemV on PC hardware in the 90s,
mostly used for embedded systems. Related, was a fully registered
POSIX compliant version of QNX for x86 hardware, and ran fairly
snappily as an 'embedded OS' on 386s.


> 2. ?The term "freeware" is ill-defined. ?If you mean "available without
> expenditure other than download time", the answer is yes, you can do
> that. ?Note that downloading isn't often a really efficient way to
> acquire very large codebases, but whatever floats your boat, and that is
> certainly situation-dependent.

I have to disagree. "Open Source Software" has the vague definition of
"Freeware" while not really being exclusive. "Freeware" harkens back
to the "Shareware" software of the 80s and 90s. Essentially you were
permitted to share with your friends, family, etc, and there was a
request you send money to the author.

Freeware was the "free to use, free as in beer" software that many
people used. It's a foundation of GNU Software, but not always as
virally infective with the license, and the tradition predates
Stallman's founding of GNU. Quite a few Freeware authors put no limit
on what could be done with the software at all.

> 3. ?You might wish to consider that whether you can initally acquire
> something at cost is an orthogonal question to the much more
> interesting question of what you and others are then permitted (and
> enabled) to do with it. ?For that reason, it's common nowadays to
> distinguish _two_ orthogonal scales of gradation.
>
> One is costs a great deal, costs little, costs nothing.[1] ?Which might be
> the spectrum you're thinking of when you say "freeware".

I really disagree. "Freeware" is "Free as in beer." It costs nothing
for the software, but might cost you for the transport and acquisition
of it (internet hookup fees, email fees, storage until you could grab
it all fees).

"Open Source" doesn't mean Free at all. It just means the source code
is available to you to tinker and modify if you'd like.

> The other is proprietary on one end, various types of open source (aka
> "free software") on the other. ?This is a metric of how much freedom
> (and source code availability) you and others enjoy to redistribute, to
> independently modify and develop and release variation.

See above.

> 4. ?The various BSD descendents are indeed Unixes in any useful sense of
> the term. ? That is also true of Unixes based on the Linux kernel, and
> Unixes based on the OpenSolaris kernel, and so on. ?Tastes Differ[TM],
> of course.

Yes, although the history is a little more muddled than that. BSD
really is more than just the kernel at this point, with the "Big 3"
versions (FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD) having differences in userland
utilities as well. I freely admit I get frustrated at the stupidity of
"more" on Linux, when I expect "less" like behavior after coming off
of my BSD based firewall. Yes, on my Kubuntu laptop, I have "more"
aliased to "less."

> 5. ?I'm having a difficult time parsing your question "What is the best
> source?" ?If you're asking where's the best place to acquire
> installation media, etc., then it depends. ?You may need to get a better
> idea of what you want to try first, before that question can be usefully
> answered.
>
> The fact that you're still stuck on the quaint "Is it really Unix"
> question suggests that you might need to back up a bit.

It's Unix-Like, and that's usually enough. Striving for POSIX
compliance means there's a principle of least surprise when bouncing
from one Unix to the next. It still means each flavor of Unix has it's
own idiosyncrasies, and it's just about what you're comfortable with
and what you enjoy.

For what it's worth, MacOS 10.5 is POSIX compliance and a certified Unix(R).


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 12:52:29 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:52:29 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <32393800905081200h387267farc7393923b4431364@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090508173355.GH16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<32393800905081107x2cd57d4bs590a9becdfe64ef6@mail.gmail.com>
	<32393800905081200h387267farc7393923b4431364@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090508195229.GO16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Johan Beisser (jb at caustic.org):

> There's a few that are true UNIX(R), as well.

And yet, nobody really cares.  As I said, the few people who did died by
around 1992.  So did, by and large, the companies.  BSDi is long gone,
for example.  Open Group still does some Single UNIX Specification (or
whatever it's called, these days) certification business to this day --
but that business has just about gone away because nobody gives a damn.


> I have to disagree. 

About "freeware" being ill-defined?  Well, sorry, it is.  

I hear the term bandied about to mean all sorts of things, and users of
the term almost invariably have no clear idea what it means, and morever
of what _they_ mean when they say it.



> "Open Source Software" has the vague definition of "Freeware" while
> not really being exclusive. 

You are flamboyantly mistaken, here.  Open source software has a formal,
highly useful, specific definition:  http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

Honestly, did you not _know_ that?  It's OK if you didn't.  I'm just
surprised.


> "Freeware" harkens back to the "Shareware" software of the 80s and
> 90s.

"Shareware" is another ill-defined term, although rather less so.  Some
"shareware" permitted the recipient to create and send out derivative
works, some did not.  Some had source code access, some did not.  So, it
was a pretty highly vague conceps.  I believe the entirety of what it 
entailed was that you would have some right to redistribute (though
sometimes with severe and even ridiculous strings attached), and the
software held out its hand for money and/or created a legal obligation
to pay someone.



> Freeware was the "free to use, free as in beer" software that many
> people used.

That is one thing people have been known to use the term to mean.  
There are others.  And the term as you construe it is fuzzy, because it 
says nothing about the legal right of modification, independent
development, and distribution of derivative works.


> I really disagree. "Freeware" is "Free as in beer." 

Again, you are confused.  You have misread what I said.  I said that
"freeware" as the term is usually construed is one pole of an axis
on which acquisition cost is denoted.


> "Open Source" doesn't mean Free at all. It just means the source code
> is available to you to tinker and modify if you'd like.

You really ought to read what I _said_ before purporting to disagree
with it.  

I said that the term "freeware" contemplates one point on an axis of
acquisition cost.  I asserted that this particular axis isn't especially
interesting.

I pointed out a separate, orthogonal metric of legal rights to source
forms, right to modify, right to redistribute modified works, right to
use for any purpose.  That is the axis on which proprietary terms lie on
one end, and various types of open source aka free-software terms lie on
the other.


> Yes, although the history is a little more muddled than that.

You don't need to tell _me_ how muddled it is.  And I was around while
it was happening.

This is obviously a newcomer to whom I was addressing.  Were you
expecting me to hit him with the whole damned levenez.com history chart?


> BSD really is more than just the kernel at this point....

Um, BSD was always more than just the kernel.


> It's Unix-Like, and that's usually enough. 

Yes, you seem to be strenuously in agreement, which might be fun but
also a waste of time.  As I said, Tastes Differ[TM].


> Striving for POSIX compliance means there's a principle of least
> surprise when bouncing from one Unix to the next.

Rough POSIX.1 has been shown useful (except of course that such things
as the Microsoft POSIX Subsystem for Windows shows you can achieve that
and produce something utterly useless).

Let me correct that:  Rough implementation of the Core Services
_portion_ of POSIX.1 has been shown useful.  Remember, we don't all need
real-time extensions, and POSIX.1c threading isn't really great.


From jb at caustic.org  Fri May  8 15:20:41 2009
From: jb at caustic.org (Johan Beisser)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:20:41 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20090508195229.GO16483@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090508173355.GH16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<32393800905081107x2cd57d4bs590a9becdfe64ef6@mail.gmail.com>
	<32393800905081200h387267farc7393923b4431364@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090508195229.GO16483@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <32393800905081520l61d54a19r37db02e319076a5f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting Johan Beisser (jb at caustic.org):
>
>> There's a few that are true UNIX(R), as well.
>
> And yet, nobody really cares. ?As I said, the few people who did died by
> around 1992. ?So did, by and large, the companies. ?BSDi is long gone,
> for example. ?Open Group still does some Single UNIX Specification (or
> whatever it's called, these days) certification business to this day --
> but that business has just about gone away because nobody gives a damn.

To be honest, I used BSD/OS well until 2003. Even as things were
winding down after their acquisition of Walnut Creek CDROM, and hiring
a bunch of FreeBSD core.

>> I have to disagree.
>
> About "freeware" being ill-defined? ?Well, sorry, it is.
>
> I hear the term bandied about to mean all sorts of things, and users of
> the term almost invariably have no clear idea what it means, and morever
> of what _they_ mean when they say it.

Okay, I've got to concede here. You're right, but that can be said
about most technical and software terms in use by the lay-user.

>> "Open Source Software" has the vague definition of "Freeware" while
>> not really being exclusive.
>
> You are flamboyantly mistaken, here. ?Open source software has a formal,
> highly useful, specific definition: ?http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

It's also modern, and postdates the early use of the term. I heard
"freeware" in the early 80s, often in the term of games. Same goes
with "shareware."

Perhaps I'm just old, recalling a time before GNU Software, and having
someone distribute binary only applications for free.

> Honestly, did you not _know_ that? ?It's OK if you didn't. ?I'm just
> surprised.

No, I just see the two as very different. Freeware implies something
different than Open Source software to me. As I said below.

>> "Freeware" harkens back to the "Shareware" software of the 80s and
>> 90s.
>
> "Shareware" is another ill-defined term, although rather less so. ?Some
> "shareware" permitted the recipient to create and send out derivative
> works, some did not. ?Some had source code access, some did not. ?So, it
> was a pretty highly vague conceps. ?I believe the entirety of what it
> entailed was that you would have some right to redistribute (though
> sometimes with severe and even ridiculous strings attached), and the
> software held out its hand for money and/or created a legal obligation
> to pay someone.

"Shareware" implied, at least to me as a teen, that you should pay for
it. PKZip/PKunzip for DOS were an excellent example of this.

>> Freeware was the "free to use, free as in beer" software that many
>> people used.
>
> That is one thing people have been known to use the term to mean.
> There are others. ?And the term as you construe it is fuzzy, because it
> says nothing about the legal right of modification, independent
> development, and distribution of derivative works.

I'm not sure you have to define those aspects for something to be
"freeware." I'm a pragmatist. "Do I have to pay the author cash for
the software itself?"

On the same note, the license itself will define the rest. I don't
want to start a license debate, but defining something as "Free to
use, modify, and distribute the modified works" doesn't exclude it
from being "Freeware." It simply gives the user more rights to do
things with the software. On the same note, that moves it from the
amateur "freeware" label to "Open Source/Free Software."

>> I really disagree. "Freeware" is "Free as in beer."
>
> Again, you are confused. ?You have misread what I said. ?I said that
> "freeware" as the term is usually construed is one pole of an axis
> on which acquisition cost is denoted.

Yes... I think we fell in to agreement, somewhere. And it might be
that I misunderstood what you said.

>> "Open Source" doesn't mean Free at all. It just means the source code
>> is available to you to tinker and modify if you'd like.
>
> You really ought to read what I _said_ before purporting to disagree
> with it.
>
> I said that the term "freeware" contemplates one point on an axis of
> acquisition cost. ?I asserted that this particular axis isn't especially
> interesting.
>
> I pointed out a separate, orthogonal metric of legal rights to source
> forms, right to modify, right to redistribute modified works, right to
> use for any purpose. ?That is the axis on which proprietary terms lie on
> one end, and various types of open source aka free-software terms lie on
> the other.

Gotcha. Sorry again for my misunderstand of what you wrote, and thank
you for your clarification.

>> Yes, although the history is a little more muddled than that.
>
> You don't need to tell _me_ how muddled it is. ?And I was around while
> it was happening.

I can't claim I was, I simply benefited when the AT&T lawsuit was
settled. Before that, I simply used SunOS and AT&T SysV systems.

> This is obviously a newcomer to whom I was addressing. ?Were you
> expecting me to hit him with the whole damned levenez.com history chart?

No, not at all. I find it overwhelming at times, I can't imagine it
for a newbie.

>> BSD really is more than just the kernel at this point....
>
> Um, BSD was always more than just the kernel.

At one point it was less than that.

>> It's Unix-Like, and that's usually enough.
>
> Yes, you seem to be strenuously in agreement, which might be fun but
> also a waste of time. ?As I said, Tastes Differ[TM].

Yep. They do.

>> Striving for POSIX compliance means there's a principle of least
>> surprise when bouncing from one Unix to the next.
>
> Rough POSIX.1 has been shown useful (except of course that such things
> as the Microsoft POSIX Subsystem for Windows shows you can achieve that
> and produce something utterly useless).

I can't say I've looked at it seriously.

> Let me correct that: ?Rough implementation of the Core Services
> _portion_ of POSIX.1 has been shown useful. ?Remember, we don't all need
> real-time extensions, and POSIX.1c threading isn't really great.

I've not really seen POSIX threading work really well, but I can't
claim to have looked.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  8 17:40:56 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 17:40:56 -0700
Subject: [buug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <32393800905081520l61d54a19r37db02e319076a5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY122-W31957FAF9594C912B71190C16C0@phx.gbl>
	<20090508173355.GH16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<32393800905081107x2cd57d4bs590a9becdfe64ef6@mail.gmail.com>
	<32393800905081200h387267farc7393923b4431364@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090508195229.GO16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<32393800905081520l61d54a19r37db02e319076a5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090509004055.GV29418@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Johan Beisser (jb at caustic.org):

> To be honest, I used BSD/OS well until 2003.

Using legacy stuff is not the subject, here.  People are still using
SPARC1 gear.

Point is, nobody really gives a damn whether somebody has gone through Open
Group calesthenics to prove Single UNIX Specification test suites (and
of course paid Open Group a nice wad of money for the privilege).
Nobody even cares whether anyone has actually paid IEEE the much smaller
amount of money for full POSIX.1 compliance certification, either.

For one thing, it turns out that, like just about any technical standard
from a hyperactive, politicised committee, POSIX.1 includes a bunch of
elements that just done matter because they aren't used, and also that 
merely aiming at approximate POSIX.1 and being reported widely to have
done the job is good enough.

NetBSD does that, various Linuxes, sundry OpenSolaris flavours, and on
and on.

And _nobody_ gives a rat's ass who's still paying Open Group the
trademark licensing fees required to use the word "UNIX" in commercial 
product references.


> Okay, I've got to concede here. You're right, but that can be said
> about most technical and software terms in use by the lay-user.

Now, you're reaching.  Any term can be _misunderstood_ and misused.  
Some were never clear in the first place.  "Freeware" has always been
one of the latter -- and always will be.  Which is why smart people
eschew it and switch to more-useful distinctions that actually tell you
something worth knowing.


> >> "Open Source Software" has the vague definition of "Freeware" while
> >> not really being exclusive.
> >
> > You are flamboyantly mistaken, here. ?Open source software has a formal,
> > highly useful, specific definition: ?http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd
> 
> It's also modern, and postdates the early use of the term. 

Of the term "_freeware_"?  Sure.  But, of the term "open source" in the
context of software?  No.  Not in any real sense.

About two or three times in OSI history, somebody with a grudge has come
onto the OSI "license-discuss" mailing list seeking to prove to them
that OSI had no right to define what "open source" means because, he
said, somebody or other had once use the term and concept together prior
to OSI's founding.

Never mind that that's just _a bit_ illogical.  One of them was
energetic enough to actually grep through lots of archives and found, if
memory serves, an astonishing two instances of near-hit citations on
Usenet, just before OSI's founding.  Of course, neither of those guys
had actually attempted to define a category.  They were just talking
about software, so it was a graze against the issue that OSI soon took
charge of.


> I heard "freeware" in the early 80s, often in the term of games. Same
> goes with "shareware."

Sure.  So did I.  I'm not sure what your point is.  Yes, these were
terms of some antiquity, just as you and I are obviously of some
antiquity.  (But were you a Homebrew Computer Club member?  ;->  )


> No, I just see the two as very different. Freeware implies something
> different than Open Source software to me.

Um, I never claimed the two were anything alike.  I am astonished you
should think I did.


> "Shareware" implied, at least to me as a teen, that you should pay for
> it. PKZip/PKunzip for DOS were an excellent example of this.

Yes, yes, yes.  We know that.  In some cases, there was a legal
obligation to pay, but not enforced by the software.  In other cases,
there was a legal obligation, _and_ enforced in some way by the
software.  In others, there was no obligation, just persuasion.

In no case was anything else useful implied by the term "shareware",
except that impliedly you also had the permission to redistribute the
thing to others, sometimes burdened by absurd restrictions to that
right, other times not.


> >> Freeware was the "free to use, free as in beer" software that many
> >> people used.
> >
> > That is one thing people have been known to use the term to mean.
> > There are others. ?And the term as you construe it is fuzzy, because it
> > says nothing about the legal right of modification, independent
> > development, and distribution of derivative works.
> 
> I'm not sure you have to define those aspects for something to be
> "freeware." 

I never so asserted.  I said, for lack of saying anything about those
utterly crucial aspects of software (among other reasons), the term is
basically useless because it's too vague and tells you little that
really matters.



> I'm a pragmatist. "Do I have to pay the author cash for the software
> itself?"

Well, I sure hope that's not _all_ you care about concerning software.

For example, if you care about yourself and others having the right to
maintain the software, irrespective of whether you were able to acquire
it for free, then you give a damn (to that degree) whether it's
proprietary or not.

If "pragmatist" means "doesn't care whether something is fixable after
it ceases to work in a changing environment", then count me out.


> On the same note, the license itself will define the rest. I don't
> want to start a license debate, but defining something as "Free to
> use, modify, and distribute the modified works" doesn't exclude it
> from being "Freeware." 

I never so asserted.  Did you think I did?  Try re-reading.



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat May  9 13:37:11 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 13:37:11 -0700
Subject: [buug] Attn John from Thurs. meeting
Message-ID: <a86954420905091337n567d3ee5o7c82686933fc9900@mail.gmail.com>

Congrats on your new Asus netbook. Regarding connecting our two
netbooks directly via our wifi chips (which we couldn't figure out on
the fly):

I've been researching the matter, it's called "unmanaged" or "ad hoc"
networking. I posed my question on an ubuntu forum:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7246810#post7246810

The first reply provided a link to a page that may answer our
question. The link is:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=861388

But I can't test it out, as I don't have a second laptop handy.
Another poster remarked "Create ad hoc network.You can do that easily
at fedora 10 with network manager BUT at ubuntu creating ad hoc from
gnome network manager or wicd does not work from my experience."

But I seriously question that. Ubuntu/gnome is still Linux, and I'm
sure you can create an ad-hoc network via the terminal. If you go to
that thread I posted in the ubuntu forum, you'll see my comment,

--quote:

From itz at buug.org  Sat May  9 14:02:02 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 14:02:02 -0700
Subject: [buug] Attn John from Thurs. meeting
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905091337n567d3ee5o7c82686933fc9900@mail.gmail.com>
	(Pewter Bot's message of "Sat\, 9 May 2009 13\:37\:11 -0700")
References: <a86954420905091337n567d3ee5o7c82686933fc9900@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87ws8qf0s5.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Pewter> But I can't test it out, as I don't have a second laptop handy.
Pewter> Another poster remarked "Create ad hoc network.You can do that
Pewter> easily at fedora 10 with network manager BUT at ubuntu creating
Pewter> ad hoc from gnome network manager or wicd does not work from my
Pewter> experience."

Pewter> But I seriously question that. Ubuntu/gnome is still Linux, and
Pewter> I'm sure you can create an ad-hoc network via the terminal. If
Pewter> you go to that thread I posted in the ubuntu forum, you'll see
Pewter> my comment,

Yes.  Forget Network Manager, which is one of the most tourturously
mangled pieces of the Linux puzzle (and yes each distro has a slightly
different one).  If you need WPA encryption look at wpa-supplicant.
If not you should be able to do what you want with just wireless-tools.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat May  9 15:10:45 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 15:10:45 -0700
Subject: [buug] Attn John from Thurs. meeting
In-Reply-To: <87ws8qf0s5.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <a86954420905091337n567d3ee5o7c82686933fc9900@mail.gmail.com>
	<87ws8qf0s5.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420905091510j6e885bd3nae7cdb6a8e32eabd@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/9/09, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> Yes.  Forget Network Manager, which is one of the most tourturously
> mangled pieces of the Linux puzzle

Excellent, Ian. Thanks for steering me away from a rocky shore!

> If you need WPA encryption look at wpa-supplicant.
> If not you should be able to do what you want with just wireless-tools.

Way to go!


-- 
Zeke Krahlin
City of the Undead

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 02:37:28 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 02:37:28 -0700
Subject: [buug] Intriguing New OS on the Horizon
Message-ID: <a86954420905110237p2fecbe59t63913d5ee25f4802@mail.gmail.com>

It's called "ReactOS", now in alpha stage...learned about it watching
one of Chris Pirillo's videos:

How do You Run Windows Programs without Windows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9pICtFavMs

So I went to their site [ http://www.reactos.org/ ] to learn more. It
consists of "only of GNU GPL (General Public License) and GPL
compatible licensed source code."

--Here's their spiel as it appears on the home page;

ReactOS? is a free, modern operating system based on the design of
Windows? XP/2003. Written completely from scratch, it aims to follow
the Windows? architecture designed by Microsoft from the hardware
level right through to the application level. This is not a Linux
based system, and shares none of the unix architecture.

The main goal of the ReactOS project is to provide an operating system
which is binary compatible with Windows. This will allow your Windows
applications and drivers to run as they would on your Windows system.
Additionally, the look and feel of the Windows operating system is
used, such that people accustomed to the familiar user interface of
Windows? would find using ReactOS straightforward. The ultimate goal
of ReactOS is to allow you to remove Windows? and install ReactOS
without the end user noticing the change.

--end of spiel

--And an excerpt from their FAQ page:

ReactOS works very closely with Wine, and thus both projects actually
benefit from each other. We have several developers in both the WINE
and ReactOS projects that work on cross-compatibility issues between
the two projects.

It is our view that Linux + Wine can never be a full replacement for
Microsoft(R) Windows(R). ReactOS has the potential for a much higher
degree of compatibility - especially for Microsoft(R) Windows(R)
drivers - which WINE does not address.

--end of excerpt

How intriguing. Thought others here might be curious about these GPL
upstarts! Is this the first GNU derived OS that is not a
unix-compatible system?

-- 
Zeke Krahlin
City of the Undead


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 16:07:28 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:07:28 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
Message-ID: <a86954420905111607p4513ef8se134fe74cfb779a4@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking to purchase a USB-connect CD/DVD player/burner
(slim/mini), 'cause they're a good price these days ($55 average). But
the two I've looked at on eBay, say they'll work with Windoze or Mac.
But isn't it a safe bet any more, than such USB 2.0 devices all run on
any Linux distro? Or do I need to get picky and look up their model
names/brands on a Linux-hardware compatible list? TIA.

-- 
Zeke Krahlin
City of the Undead

From bill.honeycutt at gmail.com  Mon May 11 16:42:04 2009
From: bill.honeycutt at gmail.com (Wm. F. Honeycutt)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:42:04 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905111607p4513ef8se134fe74cfb779a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905111607p4513ef8se134fe74cfb779a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87acd5770905111642k2290f13fxa560a2d04fa36f07@mail.gmail.com>

Find a specific reference to a USB 2.0 DVD/RW which works with someone
else's eeeubuntu.  You stand a better chance of success when you find
a "working" model.



On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Pewter Bot <pewterbot9 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking to purchase a USB-connect CD/DVD player/burner
> (slim/mini), 'cause they're a good price these days ($55 average). But
> the two I've looked at on eBay, say they'll work with Windoze or Mac.
> But isn't it a safe bet any more, than such USB 2.0 devices all run on
> any Linux distro? Or do I need to get picky and look up their model
> names/brands on a Linux-hardware compatible list? TIA.
>
> --
> Zeke Krahlin
> City of the Undead
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>

From charles.paul at gmail.com  Mon May 11 16:49:42 2009
From: charles.paul at gmail.com (Charles Paul)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:49:42 -0700
Subject: [buug] Fwd:  External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
In-Reply-To: <f720c0630905111629j6405423cod935710bab3eba78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905111607p4513ef8se134fe74cfb779a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<f720c0630905111629j6405423cod935710bab3eba78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f720c0630905111649y7212964cqbaf4dcf9772e70a@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Charles Paul <charles.paul at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
To: Pewter Bot <pewterbot9 at gmail.com>


I picked up a Lite-On bus-powered DVD writer for 80 dollars. ?It
automagically shows up as /dev/sr0, /dev/dvd and /dev/cdrom on my
Debian Lenny eeepc netbook. ?YMMV, but I believe that most modern dvd
adaptors will do the same.

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Pewter Bot <pewterbot9 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking to purchase a USB-connect CD/DVD player/burner
> (slim/mini), 'cause they're a good price these days ($55 average). But
> the two I've looked at on eBay, say they'll work with Windoze or Mac.
> But isn't it a safe bet any more, than such USB 2.0 devices all run on
> any Linux distro? Or do I need to get picky and look up their model
> names/brands on a Linux-hardware compatible list? TIA.
>
> --
> Zeke Krahlin
> City of the Undead
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 17:20:13 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:20:13 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
Message-ID: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>

Per Rick Moen's sage advice to steer clear of *all* inkjet printers,
and in need of acquiring a good quality color printer, I've started
looking at the laser species. Delighted to see that I have a wide
selection these days when I'm willing to spend up to $150. Prices sure
have dropped compared to several years ago!

Of course, I will do my homework re. Linux compatibility, consumer
reviews, cartirdge expense, etc. But I now would like to pose the
following question, regarding system requirements listed on eBay.
Thusly:

"Minimum system requirements: SuSE Linux 8.2, Red Hat Linux 9, Red Hat
Fedora Core 1, Mandrake Linux 10.1 Discovery, SuSE Linux 9.2, Red Hat
Fedora Core 3, Red Hat Linux 8.0." [I removed any Windoze and Mac
listings, for brevity's sake.]

Interesting that neither Debian nor Ubuntu were listed. Now, I would
gladly dual-boot w/2 versions of Linux if need be. But wouldn't there
be a rather simple workaround, in order to get the printer to work in
Ubuntu? Or is this some proprietary arrangement that would not allow
this? TIA.

-- 
Zeke Krahlin
Zekeopolis Headquarters

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon May 11 20:07:07 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:07:07 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090511200707.11155lc8b216598g@webmail.rawbw.com>

Without details such as make and model, printer language(s)/protocol(s),
etc. it's rather difficult for folks to make much more than a guess as
to how compatible or not it may be on operating systems / distributions
not specifically stated as compatible.

That it works or is supported on several Linux distributions is at least
fairly encouraging, but without more information it's rather difficult
to know how well it may or may not work on other distributions - or
even those it's stated to work on.  E.g. if it depends upon binary blobs
from the manufacturer, that only work on Linux distributions for which
they produce that binary blob, and for which they release no source, one
might be looking at a printer that's mostly good for a boat anchor a few
years down the road.  Or it may be they release all the source, and
those they list as "supported" are just those they've created packages
for and tested their printer on, and provide at least some level of
"support" - may work perfectly fine on other distributions, ... just
may not have "support" (or any official support) from the manufacturer
for other operating systems / distributions.

references/excerpts:
http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


Quoting "Pewter Bot" <pewterbot9 at gmail.com>:

> Per Rick Moen's sage advice to steer clear of *all* inkjet printers,
> and in need of acquiring a good quality color printer, I've started
> looking at the laser species. Delighted to see that I have a wide
> selection these days when I'm willing to spend up to $150. Prices sure
> have dropped compared to several years ago!
>
> Of course, I will do my homework re. Linux compatibility, consumer
> reviews, cartirdge expense, etc. But I now would like to pose the
> following question, regarding system requirements listed on eBay.
> Thusly:
>
> "Minimum system requirements: SuSE Linux 8.2, Red Hat Linux 9, Red Hat
> Fedora Core 1, Mandrake Linux 10.1 Discovery, SuSE Linux 9.2, Red Hat
> Fedora Core 3, Red Hat Linux 8.0." [I removed any Windoze and Mac
> listings, for brevity's sake.]
>
> Interesting that neither Debian nor Ubuntu were listed. Now, I would
> gladly dual-boot w/2 versions of Linux if need be. But wouldn't there
> be a rather simple workaround, in order to get the printer to work in
> Ubuntu? Or is this some proprietary arrangement that would not allow
> this? TIA.



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon May 11 20:52:16 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:52:16 -0700
Subject: [buug] ~, shell script programming,
	etc. (wee bits from last BUUG	meeting, plus a bit more
Message-ID: <20090511205216.24245ohysm6c5yo8@webmail.rawbw.com>

from an sh(1) man page:
    Tilde Expansion (substituting a user's home directory)
      A word beginning with an unquoted tilde character (~) is subjected to
      tilde expansion.  All the characters up to a slash (/) or the end of the
      word are treated as a username and are replaced with the user's home
      directory.  If the username is missing (as in ~/foobar), the tilde is
      replaced with the value of the HOME variable (the current user's home
      directory).

$ echo ~
/home/m/michael
$ echo \~
~
$ echo '~'
~
$ echo "~"
~
$

But not all shells are created equal - notice the differing behaviors
between bash and dash, for the versions at my fingertips, in the case
where HOME isn't set:
$ bash -c 'unset HOME; echo ~'
/home/m/michael
$ dash -c 'unset HOME; echo ~'
~
$

Somewhat hazardous:
#!/bin/sh
cd ~/some_directory
./some_program

A bit better:
#!/bin/sh
cd ~/some_directory &&
./some_program

Typically even better for a shell script:
#!/bin/sh
set -e
cd ~/some_directory
./some_program

With -e set, upon error (non-zero return for shell command) the shell
exits non-zero, rather continuing execution.  This is typically what one
wants.

references:
2009-05-07 BUUG meeting
sh(1)
http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/unix/sh/#Good_Programming_Practices



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May 12 10:15:17 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:15:17 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090512171517.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Per Rick Moen's sage advice to steer clear of *all* inkjet printers,
> and in need of acquiring a good quality color printer, I've started
> looking at the laser species. 

FWIW, I've traditionally known _colour_ laser printers as an exotic and
somewhat pricey subspecies that I've fortunately not needed, so I've not
paid close attention to them.  I gather that their prices have dropped
immensely while I wasn't looking.  But, in consequence, I'm not up to
date on the state of them.

Honestly, I've always assumed that limited amounts of colour printing is
the best possible usage model for an inkjet:  That is, the post-purchase
variable costs of an inkjet -- pretty much any inkjet -- tend to suck,
but, if you use them only when absolutely necessary and stick to a
dependable monotone laser for everyday, you pay ghastly per-page charges
only for a small number of pages per year, and thus win.

For many years, until some time around 2006-2007, a gentleman named
Grant Taylor ran the linuxprinting.org Web site, and one of its many
nice features was its Suggested Printers page.  What changed in '06-'07 
is that Grant turned over operation of the site and its extensive
database on printer makes/models to The Linux Foundation.  Those guys
have done a decent job, but Suggested Printers is among the features now
dropped from the site (which itself moved to openprinting.org).

Here's the final snapshot of that page at archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071229130553/www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting/Database/SuggestedPrinters

It was already, then, a long-unmaintained page.  I'd guesstimate that
its contents were truly current only as of maybe 2005.

So, FWIW, Grant was _then_ able to announce that the price problem with
colour lasers had recently been broken, such that "There are already
many devices well under $1000."

Grant was able to enthusiastically recommend models based on nothing but
commodity PostScript as the printer language, such as the HP Color
LaserJet 2550L and Minolta Magicolor 2450.  He suggests that other
PostScript models were also hitting the market.  He also recommended with
almost as much enthusiasm the Konica or Minolta QMS Magicolor DL series,
which required one-off drivers that were, however, open source.  

On the slightly higher end, he added "Workgroup and high-end color laser
printers usually understand PostScript and so they can easily be set up
with the manufacturer-supplied PPD file."

So, where does that leave you in 2009?  I'm not sure -- but I'd
certainly concentrate on finding genuine PostScript-compatible printers,
among what's listed in the "openprinting.org" database, and then
evaluate _those_ for durability and price.

I honestly have no idea if you can't get anything but proprietary crap
for a mere $150.  However, when you do your Web site research, you'll know. 


> "Minimum system requirements: SuSE Linux 8.2, Red Hat Linux 9, Red Hat
> Fedora Core 1, Mandrake Linux 10.1 Discovery, SuSE Linux 9.2, Red Hat
> Fedora Core 3, Red Hat Linux 8.0." [I removed any Windoze and Mac
> listings, for brevity's sake.]

Aw, c'mon.  This is not a distro-specific problem.  Any given release of
a distro comes provided with then-recent sets of various printer filter
("driver") packages:  Ghostscript Uniprint, Magicfilter, lots
of others.  If your distro doesn't have a recent enough driver of the
deseired family for a given printer, most of the time you can just grab
a PPD for the printer, e.g., via Linux Foundation's warmed-over version
of Grant's site, just drop it onto your filesystem, and point CUPS at
it.  Done.`


From rubinson at u.arizona.edu  Tue May 12 11:02:59 2009
From: rubinson at u.arizona.edu (Claude Rubinson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:02:59 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
In-Reply-To: <20090512171517.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090512171517.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090512180259.GB3750@wagner>

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:15:17AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> For many years, until some time around 2006-2007, a gentleman named
> Grant Taylor ran the linuxprinting.org Web site, and one of its many
> nice features was its Suggested Printers page.  What changed in '06-'07 
> is that Grant turned over operation of the site and its extensive
> database on printer makes/models to The Linux Foundation.  Those guys
> have done a decent job, but Suggested Printers is among the features now
> dropped from the site (which itself moved to openprinting.org).

The old linuxprinting.org was a best of breed, hearkening back to the
days of HOWTOs that were both useful and up-to-date.  I clearly
remember having to buy a new printer, looking up the site, and being
surprised to find a recommendation for a Lexmark inkjet.  Very roughly
paraphrased, the recommendation was something along the lines of
"Inkjets usually aren't worth it (unless, as Rick noted, you need
color).  And Lexmark's generally suck.  But this one has PostScript
built-in and is on sale for a ridiculously low price.  Buy two."  I
used that printer for over a decade until I finally gave it away (or
sold it?).  Never had a problem.  And now I curse all printers that
don't have native support for PostScript.  RIP.

Claude

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May 12 11:13:32 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:13:32 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
In-Reply-To: <20090512180259.GB3750@wagner>
References: <a86954420905111720l3a78479asf7b56bd620f144b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090512171517.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090512180259.GB3750@wagner>
Message-ID: <20090512181332.GL16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Claude Rubinson (rubinson at u.arizona.edu):

> The old linuxprinting.org was a best of breed, hearkening back to the
> days of HOWTOs that were both useful and up-to-date.

In the middle of the most recent BUUG discussion about printing, some
months back, I was driven to write directly to Grant Taylor, solely to
send him fanmail.  I wanted to go out of my way to merely say thanks, to
say that I really appreciated his work on that site.

I also dropped into that fanmail a particular thanks for the Suggested
Printers page, saying that _if_ he ever felt like maintaining such 
a page again, I'd be enthusiastically recommending it to people, as I
did the old one.

Grant did reply back, was clearly pleased at the unexpectedly nice mail,
and is indeed considering getting back into the game -- but, I'm sure,
not right this minute. 

From itz at buug.org  Tue May 12 20:15:41 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:15:41 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
In-Reply-To: <87acd5770905111642k2290f13fxa560a2d04fa36f07@mail.gmail.com>
	(Wm. F. Honeycutt's message of "Mon\,
	11 May 2009 16\:42\:04 -0700")
References: <a86954420905111607p4513ef8se134fe74cfb779a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87acd5770905111642k2290f13fxa560a2d04fa36f07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87octxelr6.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Bill> Find a specific reference to a USB 2.0 DVD/RW which works with
Bill> someone else's eeeubuntu.  You stand a better chance of success
Bill> when you find a "working" model.

The read side is pretty much automatic, no need to worry.  The write
side, I would do what you suggest.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed May 13 02:57:36 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 02:57:36 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
Message-ID: <a86954420905130257g9a23e61h5a7c08d57f8ff21a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 11 May 2009 "Wm. F. Honeycutt" <bill.honeycutt at gmail.com> posted:

{{ Find a specific reference to a USB 2.0 DVD/RW which works with
someone else's eeeubuntu.  You stand a better chance of success when
you find a "working" model. }}

I have a CD/DVD-RW EIDE (PATA) internal drive that i used for my
windoze system since 2005. Yanked it from my old desktop, adapted it
for USB and voila...it runs just fine in Ubuntu, including burning
both CD's and DVD's. Likewise for an external read-only DVD drive that
I bought for my netbook in November, which came preinstalled with XP.
It also runs just fine in Linux. I understand your reasoning, however
I think USB technology has made cross-compatibility a much easier
process in many cases. Prior to USB, we had SATA, PATA, SCSI, ps/2,
parallel and serial...along with their concomitant driver interface
issues. Perhaps the fact that this is RW, not just R, adds a
complication unbeknownst to yours truly?

Also, what Linux compatible lists I've seen, the external DVD models
are quite few and all at least 30% pricier (like what I'd expect for
Mac products) than the good deals I see on eBay and elsewhere. But I
thought I'd ask before taking the plunge. Last time I played with
Linux, things were not so easy. What a breakthrough!

I saw a nice model for only $59 (free shipping), but seller promotes
it as specifically for the Acer Aspire One (another netbook; mine's
Asus). I'd love to get that one, but I posted a query to the seller,
as to why it's advertised for a specific model computer. We'll see!
You may view the product here:

http://tinyurl.com/poeulu

Then I can offer a really cheap deal via craigslist for both my
internal RW, and external RO. And my workspace will become that much
less cluttered.

===================

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Charles Paul <charles.paul at gmail.com> posted:

{{ I picked up a Lite-On bus-powered DVD writer for 80 dollars.  It
automagically shows up as /dev/sr0, /dev/dvd and /dev/cdrom on my
Debian Lenny eeepc netbook.  YMMV, but I believe that most modern dvd
adaptors will do the same. }}

Excellent, and I thought so! Before switching over to Linux, I had
purchased a used (w/slight dent) non-writeable DVD player (only $24),
which works flawlessly in the Ubuntu kingdom. Thanks, Charles.

BTW, I just purchased the "HORNETTEK Rhino 250GB 2.5" External hard
drive" for just $66.60 (inc. shipping/tax/insurance). It is highly
rated for quality and durability...seeing as consumer reviews speak
often of their USB mind-drive dying on them. But I've learned that
this is usually due to the USB connectivity itself...and removing the
drive from the case, reconnecting with a $20 SATA-USB adapter will
usually have it purring like a kitten once more. Good to know these
things...my money doesn't grow on vines!

Now, my 80gb EIDE internal drive (that I stripped from my now-trashed
desktop) w/cooling case can be shelved...and my home system no longer
has any noisy fan that I've had to live with for years and years. A
relief comparable to finally discarding those clunky CRT monitors, and
noisy dot-matrix printers (which regardless retain a certain charm in
my heart after all these years).

Amazing how my updated PC reality has become minaturized, quietized
and greenized now, in 2009. After all, gotta get ready for the
technological singularity. Nanobots and AI all the way. Wheee!


-- 
Zeke Krahlin
Zekeopolis Headquarters

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed May 13 15:29:23 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:29:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] Can Debian learn from Ubuntu?
Message-ID: <a86954420905131529r8814411h798ac034b8c293e@mail.gmail.com>

An interesting article, with even more interesting comments, both pro and con:

Ted Ts'o: Debian Can Learn from Ubuntu
http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/ted_ts_o_debian_can_learn_from_ubuntu

FYI: I posted my own comment there; you can too...no need to register.

-- 
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
Zekeopolis Headquarters

From jose at tumis.com  Wed May 13 16:09:08 2009
From: jose at tumis.com (jose d lopez)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:09:08 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905130257g9a23e61h5a7c08d57f8ff21a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905130257g9a23e61h5a7c08d57f8ff21a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E4948E8-2534-4407-A480-F1BBB4FEA2DF@tumis.com>

I pulled a generic LiteOn DVD-RW drive and made it a USB drive with a  
USB 2.0 adaptor like this one:

Rosewill RCW-608 USB2.0 Adapter For IDE/SATA Device
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119152

I use it to quickly connect older drives, etc. I have used it with  
eeePc 701, eeeBox -linux, and Acer Aspire One - linux

We also have this cool brown one from LaCie in the office that works.  
I did have some boot issues with CentOS on an HP Vectra desktop. I  
suspect the older BIOS on the Vectra though.
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4308


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed May 13 17:20:47 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:20:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
Message-ID: <a86954420905131720qcbe1119h3fa7ea44089d56b9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 11 May 2009 "Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> posted:

{{ That it works or is supported on several Linux distributions is at
least fairly encouraging }}

Thanks Michael. I'm sure Rick M. is correct, that I'd be no better off
with a sub-$200 color laser printer,  than with an inkjet. I decided
to fuggedaboudit.  :P

===============

On Tue, 12 May 2009 Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> posted:


{{ pretty much any inkjet -- tend to suck, but, if you use them only
when absolutely necessary }}

Then you run the risk of the color ink cartridge drying out through
infrequent use.  :(

{{ and stick to a dependable monotone laser for everyday, you pay
ghastly per-page charges only for a small number of pages per year,
and thus win. }}

My only real need is color, so I can print my decal designs.
Otherwise, I used to indulge in printing out my latest blogs and
tales, which are quite pretty as well as informative,  due to the
teensy illustrations. I enjoy looking at them on paper, over a cup of
java and a lemon square (or a juicy slice of blueberry torte, if truth
be known). I also shared w/some friends who like my writings, but
don't use computers (can't believe these kind still exist). I'll just
forgo this luxury, and pat myself on the back for drastically reducing
my paper output.

{{ For many years, until some time around 2006-2007, a gentleman named
Grant Taylor ran the linuxprinting.org Web site, and one of its many
nice features was its Suggested Printers page.  }}

Thanks for the reference page. It's still useful, and I hope your
friend Grant resume its upkeep; he knows printers!

{{ I honestly have no idea if you can't get anything but proprietary
crap for a mere $150.  However, when you do your Web site research,
you'll know. }}

Oh, I have no doubt about that...and have decided to drop entirely,
the idea of purchasing a printer. I have found a printout and
photocopy service in the Mission (on 16th near Valencia) that does an
excellent job...w/o requiring you to do it all yourself, thus having
to pay for the inevitable bad results that occur frequently, and you
have to wait a long time to get any problem resolved, everyone's so
busy-busy, and this is why I avoid Kinko's. In this place, someone
prints out your pages, so any that do not come out good, do not cost.
The last copy place I really liked, closed down two years ago.

So it is actually much more affordable to take my files to a printing
service: guaranteed top quality results for my colorful designs.
Especially when you consider cartridges that leak, cartridges that dry
out, and cartridges that just don't work. These printouts serve as
templates, which I then duplicate via photocopy, and convert to pin-on
buttons or self-adhesive decals.

Until I become rich (or at least moderately guppified) and can afford
an $800+ printer, I'll simply forgo the matter entirely. Sweep it
under the rug; all gone!

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed May 13 17:47:08 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:47:08 -0700
Subject: [buug] ~, shell script programming,
	etc. (wee bits from last BUUG 	meeting, plus a bit more
Message-ID: <a86954420905131747m44c1ba04p96c9f304946751aa@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 11 May 2009 "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> posted:

{{  But not all shells are created equal - notice the differing
behaviors between bash and dash, for the versions at my fingertips, in
the case where HOME isn't set }}

Thanks for the mini-tutorial, Michael. It's now in my Linux notes.

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu May 14 07:44:39 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 07:44:39 -0700
Subject: [buug] BALUG: Tu 2009-05-19 Cathy Malmrose, CEO of ZaReason
Message-ID: <20090514074439.19013hr7tq7wjxwk@webmail.rawbw.com>

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-05-19
Tu 2009-05-19 Cathy Malmrose, CEO of ZaReason

For our 2009-05-19 BALUG meeting, we're excited to have Cathy Malmrose,
CEO of ZaReason[1] as our guest speaker.  ZaReason, Inc. is based in
Berkeley, California, and builds and sells a variety of Linux hardware
solutions, including servers, laptops, and desktops.  Cathy, in
addition to being CEO of ZaReason, runs a non-profit, Partimus[2],
supporting technology in education.  She has done much volunteer work
with the nonprofit computer recycling organization
Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC)[3], spent the 90s as a
tech writer, and is also a self-identified Linuxchick[4].

1. http://www.zareason.com/
2. http://www.partimus.org/
3. http://www.accrc.org/
4. http://www.linuxchix.org/

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

       rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they ensure that we're able to
eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

       6:30pm
       Tuesday, May 19th, 2009 2009-05-19

       Four Seas Restaurant
       731 Grant Ave.
       San Francisco, CA 94108
       Easy $5 PARKING:  Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu May 14 10:59:47 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:59:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Color laser printer compatibility
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905131720qcbe1119h3fa7ea44089d56b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905131720qcbe1119h3fa7ea44089d56b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090514175947.GI16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Oh, I have no doubt about that...and have decided to drop entirely,
> the idea of purchasing a printer. I have found a printout and
> photocopy service in the Mission (on 16th near Valencia) that does an
> excellent job...w/o requiring you to do it all yourself, thus having
> to pay for the inevitable bad results that occur frequently, and you
> have to wait a long time to get any problem resolved, everyone's so
> busy-busy, and this is why I avoid Kinko's.

At least you can rest in the knowledge that the printing-shop business is
notoriously competitive.  Which is not to say that bad deals are
impossible, but only that you can detect them readily, and fix them by
walking a few doors down to the next guy.

However, I thought I'd mention a third option you might pursue over
time:  _used_ colour lasers.  Logically, those that Grant Taylor
endorsed, half a decade or so ago, would make a safe bet.  Those were:

o HP Color LaserJet 2550L
o Minolta Magicolor 2450.
o other, contemporaneous pure-PostScript colour lasers
o Konica or Minolta QMS Magicolor DL series

A vendor on eBay is offering an HP Colour LaserJet 2550L for auction,
current high bid $25.

http://computers.shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQTechnologyZLaserQQ_dmptZCOMPQ5fPrinters?_nkw=LaserJet+2550L&_sacat=178&_trksid=m270&_odkw=&_osacat=178

You'll notice the "BuyItNow" (no-bid) price of $275, but that's not the
auction.

A Konica Minolta QMS Magicolor 2450 is shown, but not as an auction item
but rather as BuyItNow ($395).

There are two Konica Minolta Magicolour DL printers currently up for
bid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Konica-Minolta-Magicolor-5430-DL-Laser-Printer_W0QQitemZ320362915693QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCOMP_Printers?hash=item4a971e276d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/KONICA-MINOLTA-MAGICOLOR-5440-DL-printer-color-laser_W0QQitemZ230343112437QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCOMP_Printers?hash=item35a184f6f5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


This printer on Craiglist isn't quite one of what Taylor recommended,
and indeed is shown on Openprinting.org as a "GDI printer" -- a printer
that offloads all imaging onto the host computer -- but works well
enough and has open source drivers _and_ is cheap:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/1168177173.html
http://openprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Minolta-magicolor_2400W

Probably the same cut-rate printer, $25 cheaper still:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/1160988023.html



Doing this search brings up a whole bunch (85) of other local prospects:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sys?query=color laser

You could do a whole lot worse than to just research a dozen or so of
the best-looking candidates on Openprinting.org, and then just buying
one and getting it over.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu May 14 16:34:02 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:34:02 -0700
Subject: [buug] External CD-RW/DVD-RW burner
Message-ID: <a86954420905141634x58ab9c0ev294f147134f27098@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:09:08 -0700 jose d lopez <jose at tumis.com> posted:

{{ I pulled a generic LiteOn DVD-RW drive and made it a USB drive with
a USB 2.0 adaptor like this one: }}

Thanks for the excellent reference, I've just bookmarked for future
need...may get one in advance, the price is so reasonable.


-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri May 15 14:45:44 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 14:45:44 -0700
Subject: [buug] Buug Digest, Vol 50, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1242327602.4997.buug@weak.org>
References: <mailman.0.1242327602.4997.buug@weak.org>
Message-ID: <a86954420905151445p6c347ccav4e798cb2258784c8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 14 May 2009 Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> posted:

{{ However, I thought I'd mention a third option you might pursue over
time:  _used_ colour lasers. }}

Thanks much for all those excellent recommendations, Rick. I know
they'll come in handy somewhere down the line, 'cause I can only put
off for so long, w/o doing my own printing.

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May 15 15:24:33 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:24:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] Buug Digest, Vol 50, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905151445p6c347ccav4e798cb2258784c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1242327602.4997.buug@weak.org>
	<a86954420905151445p6c347ccav4e798cb2258784c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090515222433.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Thanks much for all those excellent recommendations, Rick. I know
> they'll come in handy somewhere down the line, 'cause I can only put
> off for so long, w/o doing my own printing.

You're very welcome.  I have to admit that I boggle, every time I see
people boggling over how to select hardware that is (1) Linux-compatible, 
(2) inexpensive, and (3) a newly released model that is available only
"new" on the retail market.  

It's usually laptops, but the same principle applies to (various types
of) printers:  Why not discard criterion #3, since doing so makes the
other two massively easier to satisfy?

I almost never see people do that.  Instead, they scrimp and save to buy
some extremely new, expensive unit, then post complaints about how Linux
support lags for its newly-created chipset, printer language, etc.  And
I find myself thinking "Well, what'd you expect?"

Buying used is (speaking generally) smarter, not just because you get a
huge price break, but also because you can ensure that you're buying 1-2
year old chipsets that, by now, have rock-solid Linux support in
released distros.

-- 
Cheers,                      Notice:  The value of your Hofstadter's Constant 
Rick Moen                    (the average amount of time you spend each month 
rick at linuxmafia.com          thinking about Hofstadter's Constant) has just 
McQ!  (4x80)                 been adjusted upwards.

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May 15 16:08:31 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:08:31 -0700
Subject: [buug] Buug Digest, Vol 50, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <4A0DEE33.6020004@eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <mailman.0.1242327602.4997.buug@weak.org>
	<a86954420905151445p6c347ccav4e798cb2258784c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090515222433.GK16483@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A0DEE33.6020004@eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <20090515230831.GA29418@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Jeff Anderson-Lee (jonah at eecs.berkeley.edu):

> That does not often work in research computing.  I want to use Linux,  
> but it's a struggle to do so some times without paying for Red Hat  
> Enterprise.

Well, if you actually need the latest and greatest hardware, then that's
a hard requirement.  Most of the time, it's not.

In particular, people new to Linux often assume that you need grossly
overpowered CPUs and gobs of RAM, thus requiring cutting-edge gear.
Even when I'm not merely being cheap, my Linux gear is always based on
chipsets that have been on the market a minimum of 1-2 years.

Thus, if I were looking to get a replacement laptop, my preferred choice
would be a Thinkpad T42 or T42p, which is several models obsolete, but
still really good and an enormously satisfactory Linux machine.


But, anyway, I'm a little puzzled by your reference to RHEL, because in
my experience that distro's vendor kernel and installer often has real
problems on some recently introduced hardware chipsets.  One of my
recent long-term gigs was as the sole guy in charge of Linux hardware
certification for a very large EDA firm:  Vendors would ship the firm
their eval units, and they'd get dropped off at my lab.  It was my task
to recommend or disrecommend their purchase for upcoming quarters.

First thing I'd always do is boot a recent Sidux live CD, because _that_
would reliably figure out all hardware.  That, in turn let me probe the
machine's hardware inventory using lspci, "dmesg | more", /proc/cpuinfo, 
/proc/meminfo, and so on.  I would capture all those details on the
intranet wiki, then finally _try_ the various enterprise distros the
firm used (various levels of RHEL3, 4, and 5, SLES9 and 10 with sundry
service packs).  

It was fairly common for some and in some cases all of the RHEL
installations to be problematic on hardware-support grounds.  Most
common problem was newly-introduced integrated Broadcom NICs.  ACPI 
problems were also very common.  

Sometimes, those problems could be gotten around by playing with kernel
parameters (noapic, nolapic, noacpi, etc.)  Sometimes, the only feasible
workaround was turning off the problematic onboard component and
installing a PCI-E add-on card.

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat May 16 12:12:44 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:12:44 -0700
Subject: [buug] linux printers
Message-ID: <a86954420905161212j1991ca83gd200f4f6bb992c02@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 15 May 2009 Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> posted:

{{ Buying used is (speaking generally) smarter, not just because you
get a huge price break, but also because you can ensure that you're
buying 1-2 year old chipsets that, by now, have rock-solid Linux
support in released distros. }}

Best printer advice ever!

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Mon May 18 18:18:47 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:18:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Gears or no Gears?
Message-ID: <a86954420905181818h1dda9c48s3927a495aea745f9@mail.gmail.com>

Would like some informed opinion about whether or not using Google
Gears would prove a boon to operating  my upcoming Linux blog and
site. I've settled on Wordpress, which has the option of using Gears
to facilitate a blogmaster, quote:

"Gears is a plug-in that extends your browser to create a richer
platform for web applications. For example, webmasters can use Gears
on their websites to let users access information offline or provide
you with content based on your geographical location. To install
Gears, visit http://gears.google.com."

Gears is Linux-ready, and plugs into Firefox.

Does anyone from BUUG know if Gears can violate my online priivacy in
any way? How about tracking? Are the features offered mostly lazy
workarounds, or will they really be an asset to my blogging? i
certainly like the idea of having a clean interface between client and
server, and being able to work offline.

My needs would be simple; my blog would only be mildly interactive,
based on comments only, nothing else. Perhaps Gears' features would be
top heavy, and thwarted by the fact I don't have 24/7 broadband, and
only have that when i access public wifi away from home (where I only
have dialup).

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon May 18 18:56:50 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:56:50 -0700
Subject: [buug] Gears or no Gears?
In-Reply-To: <a86954420905181818h1dda9c48s3927a495aea745f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420905181818h1dda9c48s3927a495aea745f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090519015650.GQ16483@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Would like some informed opinion....

An offering a guesstimate from a non-developer.  You'll have to decide
for yourself what that's worth in this context.

> Does anyone from BUUG know if Gears can violate my online priivacy in
> any way? How about tracking? 

You mean, in the sense of calling home to the Google, Inc. mother ship?
I really don't see how -- with the minor exception that the default
network location provider for the Geolocation API is maps.google.com, 
so you feed Google the usual slow trickle of "someone cares about this
place" data, same as whenever you use Google Maps.

Everything else in the Gears toolkit, as detailed on
http://code.google.com/apis/gears/ , seems to be strictly local
extensions inside and alongside the user's browser.

> Are the features offered mostly lazy
> workarounds, or will they really be an asset to my blogging? 

You'll really need to read Wordpress's docs about _how_ they use the
Gears interfaces, to judge that for yourself.`


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Tue May 19 12:52:51 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:52:51 -0700
Subject: [buug] Gears or no Gears?
Message-ID: <a86954420905191252u62718196s4099c266494c8e2a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 18 May 2009 Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> posted:

{{ You'll really need to read Wordpress's docs about _how_ they use the
Gears interfaces, to judge that for yourself.` }}

They're not very helpful; no discussion of possible down sides to
using Gears. My concern is how secure an interface they use, or would
my system become compromised/vulnerable.

A web search for "google gears security privacy issues" came up with
the answers I seek (and after reading these pages, I've decided to do
w/o the Gears).

Google Gears: Initial Thoughts on Security Implications
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/06/google_gears_initial_thoughts.html

--quote:
I like the concept of Google Gears. I think it?s a great idea. Just
like everything in life, the increased functionality it provides is
not without increased risk. If I had to pick from the list above, I?d
guess that we are most likely to hear of existing XSS or browser
vulnerabilities being abused to steal (or manipulate) Gears databases.
--end quote

Google Gears and Security concerns
http://www.anishshaikh.com/2008/04/google-gears-and-security-concerns.html

--quoting aspects of possible intrusion:
DNS spoofing or /etc/hosts file...SQL Injection...Cross site
scripting...Security of Data files...Memory usage...Encryption...Good
news for Forensics Investigators...New Attack
avenues...Malware...Worker Process Abuse...You cannot password protect
your files when they are offline like in Microsoft Office.
--end quote

Is it OK for Google to Own Us?
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Is-it-OK-for-Google-to-Own-Us/

--quote:
The services at issue at some point will likely include Google Gears,
now in beta, an open-source browser extension that uses Java-Script
APIs to allow users to work on Web applications when theyre offline.
--end quote

Is Google Gears Safe?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/02/security_google_gears/

--quote:
Bottom line: Gears is probably fairly safe, provided that the site
really is trustworthy, but it is a beta and the usual caveats apply.
Check that URL carefully. Avoid Gears when used by smaller
organizations that might not have sites well defended against malware.
I still don't like the dialog though; and I'm surprised that Google
does not make it easier for users to examine the security issues.
--end quote

NO GEARS FOR ME!

-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed May 20 00:03:03 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 00:03:03 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Linux Users Group
Message-ID: <20090520000303.562821hhc7mt04cg@webmail.rawbw.com>

There is now, also:
Berkeley Linux Users Group
BerkeleyLUG
http://www.berkeleylug.com/



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed May 20 15:15:04 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:15:04 -0700
Subject: [buug]  Berkeley Linux Users Group
Message-ID: <a86954420905201515u313ff8b3u9dd0bf40b688183b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 20 May 2009 "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> posted:

> There is now, also:
> Berkeley Linux Users Group
> BerkeleyLUG
> http://www.berkeleylug.com/

Fantastic. Just subscribed via their home page, I'm gonna be there!
Maybe some would also like to attend our more laid-back bi-Thurs.
gatherings. Personally, I like once or twice a week get-togethers, to
slake my Linux thirst, so this'll work out fine. Tfhanks, Michael.


-- 
Zekeopolis Headquarters
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

From jim at well.com  Wed May 27 08:22:47 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 08:22:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday May 28, 2009: PyCon Recaps
Message-ID: <1243437767.6500.328.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting Thursday May 28, 2009: PyCon Recaps   

NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, at Symantec's location at
350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. 
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18

Tonight's talk is 
* PyCon Recaps 
by Wesley Chun, Daryl Spitzer, and Aaron Maxwell 


Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an 
essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. 
Tonight's Newbie Nugget: 
unknown at this time 


LOCATION FOR May 28, 2009 
Symantec Corporation
Symantec Vcafe
350 Ellis Street
Mountain View, CA 94043

BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone



------------------------ Agenda ------------------------
 
..... 7:30 PM ...........................
General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, 
any first-minute announcements. 


..... 7:35 PM to 7:45 PM ................

Newbie Nugget: unknown  


..... 7:45 PM to 8:35 PM ................

PyCon Recaps 
by Wesley Chun, Daryl Spitzer, Aaron Maxwell 

Topic areas will include Design Patterns, Class Decorators, Coroutines
and Concurrency, Testing, and more. 

..... 8:35 PM to 9:00 PM  ................
Mapping and Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics 
the announcers are interested in. 

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up 
individually on the announcements and other topics of 
interest.



From aldenm at gmail.com  Thu May 28 14:05:13 2009
From: aldenm at gmail.com (Alden Meneses)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:05:13 -0700
Subject: [buug] VPS Business for Sale
Message-ID: <221610dc0905281405r795e8a1cn735b21f085a0a7ff@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,

I happened across a VPS business for sale. The business sells for under $5K
and supposedly has a positive cash flow of about $3.5K/annually. I don't
have the system admin skills to go at this alone. The VPS is running on
Linux out of leased equipment at a Dallas facility.

Guess what I am looking for is

a) A partner
b) A guru or contractor to support me when I cannot figure out how to solve
some issues on my own.
c) Some insight on the VPS market and things to look out for.

At any rate send me an email and we can discuss further. I haven't spoken to
the seller as of yet to get more details but if you want to be involved you
will need to sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA).

All the best,
Alden Meneses


-- 
Need a place to stay in So. Lake Tahoe, CA?
Visit www.heavenly5.com
cell (510) 734-1821
fax  (415) 386-8230
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